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I have one PA final question for you. Knowing that inclusive leadership benefits us all and that the goal is for all of us to belong and enhance all of us, but yet we know that not everyone is comfortable even with the concept of inclusive leadership with. Dealing with the change or the reorganization of the status quo. How do we partner with institutions, with the leaders who sit with the status quo?

Michel Shah: 0:33

Welcome to upSkill Talks. I'm your host, Michel Shah lead UpSkiller at UpSkill Community. UpSkill Talks is a podcast for leaders, leaders who are actively seeking innovative and creative ways to interact lead themselves and others. In every episode, through real life stories and enlightening conversations, we will explore the challenge. And opportunities real leaders face in today's everchanging workplace. We will present you with real strategies for you to leverage your soft skills and produce transformative results. Thank you for joining me on this journey. Let us begin.

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I think, I think people need to understand that discomfort is actually part of the process of growth, because if you don't deal with discomfort, you can lull into complacency and assume that everything is hunky-dory when it's not. And so instead of seeing discomfort as something to be anxious about, it should be an awakening. Because it means that something is not right. And so let's try and fix that together. And going back to my point about when we do write by one, we actually lift all of us up those leaders who are filled with trepidation about change. Um, you know, work with them to understand the value. You know, so you've got an organization. If it is not an organization that people see as inclusive, you're gonna lose talent that doesn't come to you. If you're selling products, people would say, this organization I don't wanna be connected with. They're not gonna buy your stuff. You know, if you are, uh, an organization that is seen as a toxic environment for certain kinds of people, you're not gonna attract them. What does that mean? You're leaving, um, you know, talent on the table. Uh, and, and you know, one other thing that I wanna remind people about is when we, we, we draw our balance sheets and we talk about our financial health and so on. One of the things that I think organization has to have to begin to. Factor into their risk assessment is the risk of exclusion, because it is a very costly thing to risk not being able to draw on this huge talent pool that is available. It's a risk to be seen as an organization that no one wants to work for or holding. A small group of people wanna work for those kinds of things. I would suggest, and I've said this to various leadership groups, that we have to begin to factor into our risk assessment rep, you know, because we talk about reputational damage because somebody goes to do something terrible. Well, this reputational damage from being seen as the organization that certain people don't feel that they can work for because your values are antithetical for to what they stand for. So there's a cost to these. So if you explain these to people and also show them the evidence, Of what happens with inclusion because as I said before, the evidence is clear. Organizations that embrace do better. So if you're a leader, come along. Uh, I think it's also important not to be judgmental because we all learn this and be able to look at this as a ramp where people start at different stages. Some are more advanced on that ramp, but we're all on the same ramp and we're all helping one another to climb up towards that ultimate goal that we all seek and be able to build common purpose and to be able to work together in a way that lifts everyone and not leave anyone feeling that somehow they are less than because they don't fit a particular mode. And I think that we're beginning to see that because leaders recognize that the evidence is clear, the discomfort gets in the way. That is something we can work on together to get to a better place of embracing change, embracing the ambiguities that come with it, and embracing the discomfort and using the discomfort as a springboard to a better version of ourselves. Fantastic. I'm going to open up and start sharing some of the questions that, um, that are in here so that you will have sufficient time to give enough effort to these questions. T says, how to call someone out who's a superior when they're doing a performative piece, similar to posting a photo, represent an inclusivity, but not believing or living by it. Yeah, and, and that is a tough one, right? Because there's a pod dynamic there and you're, you know, if, if the person is vindictive or whatever, you're concerned about what it is that you do. This is why I made the point about. Different levels of accountability, right? And so the, that individual should be seen by whomever they report to or their peers as being inimical to the organization's. Good. And, and so the, if you have a culture, presumably this person maybe one of many, or they could be the only one that believes in this and so on. So look for those allies and be able to seek, because you may feel that because of the structural, you know, imbalance, because of the power dynamics, you may not be able to do it. And I recognize that some people are inve, very vulnerable situation. You don't want to do that. But if there's a trusted colleague who can be a conduit to that, uh, and, and so let's say you know, somebody that you trust, you share this with, and they go into the boardroom and they don't need to say, Michelle said this to me, or Tiffany told me this, or whatever, but they can begin to talk about, look folks. I'm observing this in our organization. We have put out this thing about being an, a welcoming place and so on, but I'm experiencing this kind of thing. They become a conduit for that, and they might be the ones that are able to speak your truth because the, the, you know, it'll be naive for me to think that everybody can speak their truth to power, right? Um, you know, some people have the luxury to be able to do that, and they can move on to a job and they're fine. But not everybody has that luxury. And so we should recognize that and be able to use all the mechanisms that are available. Now, there are other cases where leaders give people licensings to be critical of them. Uh, and so again, like I said, we're all on a journey. Maybe what they're doing is not right, but they don't know it. And because they're giving you the lines and create a culture where you can in fact hold them accountable, you can have a respectful co conversation about, uh, You know, you did this, you know, and, and you remember I told you about how the values are your compass. Mm-hmm. So you go there and you're not talking to them as, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm personalizing this. Right? You know, I'm not saying you're a terrible person, but I'm saying you did this. I'm mashing it against the values that we stand for. I see a disconnect there. And it goes to your own integrity as a leader, because you say this when we have our town halls, that you believe in this, but you've done this. And, and that person, if they're really astute and genuine about, you know, their journey would thank you, would embrace you. You've done it respectfully. You've done it collegially, and you've done it with a reference to the values that presumably that organization holds dear. Right? So there are different mechanisms, uh, to approach this, but I'm not naive to think that it all works out. But these are some of the channels that you could use to get, uh, the outcome. Thank you very much. Our next question is from Althea. How does inclusive leadership truly flourish within an organization that is structured in hierarchy? Is hierarchy antithetical to inclusive leadership? So there's a difference between the hierarchical structures and the practice of leadership because, you know, the, the structures are there for a reason sometimes, right? You know, you've gotta have accountability one level to the other, you know, and so on. Um, so that is fine, right? It is how is practice? So the person at the top should not be so disconnected from the person down here that it feels like an organization that, um, has no humanity to it. And so I think that, you know, they're not necessarily determinists. I don't think a hierarchical organization necessarily mean a non-inclusive organization, but I think that. You if, if you allow hierarchy to be the end goal as opposed to a mechanism to collective goals, then you get into that problem. But if you look at hierarchy as, you know, a structure that allows for accountability, because remember it's the same hierarchy that allows the board to be able to hold the pers the president accountable, right? Is the same hierarchy that allows the chair to hold, you know, a staff member accountable. So it does, there's the role has certain authority. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, uh, some authority that is invested in it to enable us use it for good. And if we use it for good, then that is fine. If it gets ossified in a way that is unbending. And un adapt, adaptable and unresponsive, then we've got a problem. Mm-hmm. You know, so it's the same thing, Michelle. You know, when this critique of bureaucracy, you know, and all bureaucracy, quite bureaucracy, may not necessarily be a bad thing, is how is manifest in, in practice. Right. That can be the problem. Correct. So a lot of this, what I'm hearing really comes down to what you started off with when you talked about the internal and external components, the two levels. Because internally, that leader that you're talking about, when someone goes to him, the hierarchy, all of these things really comes down to the individual in some cases. Mm-hmm. And, and by the way, just to add to the question, I think because, you know, within that recal structure, you can work on mechanism for inclusion at each level, right? So, you know, you're bringing people into different spaces, you know, so as, as decisions are made at each of these levels, if those decisions encompass the totality of your organization and the people in it, then you know, even though you may not be in that space, your voice will be resonant in those spaces because mechanisms allow it to, to get to that, right? And there are folks, uh, for example, on boards that represents staff, you know, so you can have the staff voices in these places. So the H may not necessarily be the problem, it's how we practice it. That is the problem. Correct, correct. Thank you. And this question is Sylvia, Dr. Tete, she's addressing directly to you. Thanks for your thought provoking ideas about inclusive leadership. Conceptually, the idea of inclusion is one that many people agree with, but as you mentioned in many cases, getting to the execution and the strategies, the execution of strategies and practices that promote real leadership is challenging. What are some of the biggest challenges you've faced in your work to promote inclusive leadership and how did you deal with that? Yeah. You know, I mean, uh, it's, um, you know, I'll probably give you the example, uh, with these Karo Charter and the national dialogues that led to that, right? Because as you try to bring people together to talk about these things, there's always a fear of the unknown and the fear that you're gonna unleash something that you cannot then contain, right? Mm-hmm. So there's always this concern about what is the company, and a lot of it is, you know, counter right? People are thinking about what could be, and, and I think you, you have to recognize that this is a journey. People come to it at different, um, you know, stages and different levels of maturity in terms of their knowledge of things. We also have to be willing to forgive because I think that if we become overly judgmental of people, we don't give opportunity for people to learn. People begin to walk on eggshells. They are worried, they're concerned. And there's no room then to learn. I would rather somebody who's genuinely seeking knowledge and falters and guests lifted up mm-hmm. Than have that person feel that they have to skirt around things. Right. Because then we don't learn. So I think it's important that we're able to give room for people to learn. Mm-hmm. That we're able to anchor these things in values so that we can go back to them. Mm-hmm. And recognize that people will come to this at different stages and so on. But as long as we're all on that run, on that journey together and holding and supporting one another is important. And then success begets success. Right. So sometimes you've gotta be able to demonstrate that it's not, I don't think it should be the burden of people on the margins. Mm-hmm. To make people up there feel comfortable, or people who are part of the password that feel comfortable. It's not that. But on the other hand, if we're able to demonstrate the value, Of doing these things, you begin to expand the circle of people who are brought in. But I think we should always, I say to people, even in organiz, in societies that are very homogeneous, we have differences. People falter, people learn, right? It's not like, you know, in, you know, majority black societies. It doesn't look like we don't have the same kind of problems. So we should be able to grant one another room to learn. Mm-hmm. And be able to pull people together. Then the alliances that you build, the culture that you build begins to be its own incubator for moving things forward, right? But we should never, I think the worst thing you can do is to give up on this effort, because what is the alternative, right? I would rather be able to make strides. Even if they seem slow and painful, as long as they're moving in the right direction. Mm-hmm. That is it. Somebody said to me once to recognize, and I think that this, uh, response is important for, for the question, and you can get very despondent because of the nature of this work. And they said to me, you know, this work is so difficult that when you make a stride, try to celebrate that. Even as you recognize that there's still more work to be done, otherwise you just beat yourself up and the very people who are part of the status quo that you're trying to upset win. Right. Because, you know, if all of us are dropping, the status quo maintains itself. So let's celebrate those little victories. Let's use them, uh, to mobilize support for the cause and drive that. But despondency can become our own enemy, and that is why all of us have been there for one another because it's hard work. You're trying to change a system that is youngs old. You're trying to change a system that is no one a seed place. So it's gonna be difficult work and that is why all of us, irrespective of you know, what our privileges are, to use whatever opportunity we have to be able to support one another to drive home the value of this work. Wow, awesome. Awesome, awesome. Thank you very much. I see we have another couple questions. How can, Diana is asking, how can inclusive leadership happen in an organization that is traditionally siloed and promotes a culture that supports and rewards areas of the organization that are outperforming other areas? So the, let me just the last piece that supports, I didn't catch that last bit. And rewards areas of the organization that are outperforming other areas. I. And, and so outperforming in terms of advancing inclusion, is that, I suspect it perhaps, right? Been in outcomes results. Yeah. And, and I think that is, so that goes to, you know, so early on I had talked about the fact that if you've got a board of governance that is saying to the Mr. President or Madam President, this is your mandate for the year, and we're gonna hold you accountable to this, and your performance is going to be dependent on all of these things, plus the extent to which inclusion, you know, infuses every aspect of your work. So that becomes, uh, an indicator, right? A matrix for, uh, determining whether or not you've made progress and rewarding those. Because I think that my point about, you know, success begets success is that people begin to see the benefits of doing this, the organization or the department in that organization that is. Diverse and inclusive is making strides because they know their audience. They're learning from people that, uh, they target for their services and products and they're able to do well. So you look at that and go, why is this another group not doing, oh, they all look alike. They sell to this small niche and that's it. So I think, you know, organizations have to make sure that accountability is woven into this and that there are reward mechanisms that ensures that when you do good in the service of the organization, that you live those values, that there is a benefit to doing that. So you know, whether it's promotion, whether it is increments, whether it is advancement, and so on. Because again, if those parts of the organization are the ones embracing this and you are able to move them into the senior ranks of the organization, you can then begin over time. You begin to change the culture at the top and the culture at the top then feeds this and you become a beneficiary of this virtual cycle of populating the organization with the right people. Right? So that I think is important. If I understood the question right, the importance of being able to reward people who live the values, who are not just performing and not, you know, getting to the substantive part of it and are just manifest in form, that is a very important part of what it is. And the opposite is true, right? When we don't reward people for doing what we are asking them to do, what is the motivation on the part of the people who are part of the status quo? It's like, huh, and, and by the way, it's harder work, right? So why would I wanna do this harder work that I have no benefits for, right? Um, so let's, let's reward those who support the cause as we've articulated them. Fantastic. Fantastic. All right. I have a comment for you. Thanks so much for your wisdom. No pun intended. You lived up to your name and if you're going to fall, fall forward and fail forward. Diana said we were speaking about outcomes and results as we assume. I'm going to, um, take a minute just to share with you some of the top things that I pulled out of our conversation, and then I'm gonna hand over to Tiffany to close us out for this evening. I really wanna say this was such a delightful conversation. I could keep talking to you for hours and I, I must make sure that I arrange for those additional hours of top time with you and, but this was a very, very insightful. I addressed a lot of questions that I had, a lot of questions that get raised and sometimes we don't have a place to go to for this kind of information. I was laughing that chat, G p t almost shut down when I asked it a number of questions about inclusive leadership. It's like chat g p t's. Probably like where am I supposed to get this information? For sure. It's like we don't have a deep reservoir of resources on inclusive leadership, and so I'm really delighted to have this conversation with you to clarify my own understanding, to fill in some of the gaps in my own learning and to feel a little bit more confident about my conversations that I pursue on inclusive leadership. I heard we anchor our work in values like trust and empathy. I heard it's important for us to develop ambassadors. I heard we're all learners on this journey, and this is such an upskill language that you're using. No judgment. We're all a work in progress is what we say at Upskill, and that's why we're all here. Leaders that show up all the time, volunteer in our time, giving up ourselves to learn together and to forgive each other, and that is such a hard thing to do, but it's a really important skill for us to develop. We have a hard time forgiving even in our families and imagine in this kind of space, but this is something important for us. A prerequisite for leadership is being inclusive and so not the additive thing where it's leadership plus inclusion, but rather the substance of inclusion precedes the ability to lead effectively. And I heard commitment, intentionality has to be a part of it for us to make it through the tough times to make little strides along the way, build alliance, and build a culture, which becomes the incubator, which helps us to sustain the work and to continue to grow the effort. Success begets success, and as we say at upscale community, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, and so take one bite. The important thing that Dr. Tae has confirmed for us tonight is that it's the longer term commitment your way, one step at a time. The key is don't let up. We're gonna get there, or we'll hand off to the next generation whom we can trust to take this baton forward. I'd like to hand over to Tiffany to close this session. Dr. Thank you. Thank you so much, so much. Thank you. Well, I am, um, almost speechless, which is pretty rare, especially because Dr. Tete has been the victim of many, many, many words I've saved up for him. I'm always so excited to, uh, talk to him and, and gain his insights, and I'm so grateful. Um, and I know that I can speak on behalf of everyone in the group to say that we are so deeply grateful for the time that you've taken out of what I know is your extraordinarily busy schedule to spend time with us discussing such an important topic and contributing to leadership development at the community level, which is something that we care about here at Upskill. Something that I care about personally, something that I know that Dr. Tete, uh, cares about personally as well, and why he's taken that time in his schedule. And, you know, Dr. Teti, you talked about creating more inclusive leaders and, um, being a model. For inclusive leadership and, and being that inclusive leader yourself and demonstrating that. And when you come into a space like this, you are very much multiplying your inclusive leadership into everybody else in this space, which then is multiplied beyond you and everyone in this space to everyone in the spaces that they occupy. So, uh, I, I can't say thank you. Enough for you joining us here tonight. And I know that everyone's taken away something this evening. And the last kind of thing before I really wrap up, uh, and close out here that I wanted to mention is that we talked a lot about developing inclusive leaders in organizations, but as we can see, it happens in all spaces and all places online and in person. So thank you so much for contributing to that. I'll close out with just, uh, pointing everyone to our chat. Upskill community has a podcast and a newsletter, and a community online and a blog. This is not the only time that you have the opportunity to upskill in this space. Next week, just like every other week at 7:00 PM on Thursdays, we have our live sche, our live sessions, and it will be an in meeting format rather than a webinar format, so we can tease out some more of these ideas, these wonderful ideas that we have discussed this evening. So thank you again, Dr. Tete. Thank you everyone for joining us. Please join us again next Thursday. Take care, everyone. Thank you. Take care. Be well everyone. Thanks for the opportunity. It was a pleasure having you. I'm so delighted. Michelle. Will, we'll connect later. Okay? Sure. We must. We must. Thank you. Take care. Bye-bye. Have a good one. Bye bye. Bye. Bye everyone. Thanks for coming.

Michel Shah: 25:26

Thank you for listening to this episode of UpSkill Talks. We bring you new episodes every Monday. Please take a moment to subscribe, leave a five star rating and a written review at apple podcast. Or follow us on. By Google podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, don't forget to share UpSkill talks with other leaders like yourself. So they too may gain the skills and insights to produce amazing results. Please go to UpSkillCommunity.com to review show notes and learn how you can join a community of leaders from across the globe. Collaborating to lead in a more meaningful and impactful way. I'm your host, Michel Shah. And again, thank you for joining me on this episode of UpSkill Talks.